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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:26:20 GMT -5
But I’ve met their families and they didn’t end up wanting their kids to be that way and your mom and dad didn’t want you to end up being a serial killer. Do you understand Willy? That’s not what we want for our kids.
Your brother doesn’t want you destroyed, he just wants to try and understand. Now I tell you what though, is that half of my investigators think Dave is fully involved, they think that the two of you were involved. All right, there’s other people that think the Hell’s Angels are involved with you. (Pickton shifts in his chair)
OK. Willy you know how big or how small this is, (Adam moves closer) you know whether it’s just you, you know whether it’s you and the girls, and you know whether it was you and Dinah, you know whether it’s you and Lynn, you know what that is, Willy. You know whether it’s you and Dave.
But if you’re loOKing for why you should deal with this thing, deal with it upfront, I can tell you a number of really good reasons. Is that by explaining, giving people a chance to understand is going to make a huge difference in how you are treated for the rest of your life.
It’s going to make a huge difference in whether or not you are seen with or in that prison environment. The truth is, Willy, you’re probably going to be the biggest serial killer in Canadian history, you’re going to be a very, very famous guy. All right,
you will have achieved something. You know you eluded police for years and years, let’s face it. It’s pretty amazing. But it’s over. And you know what Willy, you’re a smart logical person, Billy said it, it’s true. And the reality is, is that I believe you want to be. Make it a smart,logical choice as we deal with this.
And you want to be explaining about Lynn and Dinah and where all that happened. Cause if they were pressuring you, if they’re fully involved, that gives some explanation to it. That’s going to be something that allows Dave, you know, your sister and the rest of the people you know, and there, there’s lots of stuff up in the air.
Willy, there are some people who think you hate your sister. There’s people who talk about how Dave treats you badly, that he yells at you, and you know, and that you’re hostile towards him. Is that true? (Shakes head no) I mean he, I know he does yell at you, cause you can’t, he gets angry with you.
You know, Willy, I know that they all done better than you, their lives have been better than yours. You brOKe out of the farm once, when was that, what year was it that you went down south?
P: ‘74.
A: In 1974, did you take a bus?
P: I flew all the way down there.
A: You flew?
P: I flew down there.
A: How did you choose that place, how did you choose that?
P: Ah (mentions a name), pen pals.
A: How did you become pen pals with her?
P: Writing.
A: Pardon.
P: Writing.
A: OK, and she invited you down.
A: How old were you then?
P: 24.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:26:44 GMT -5
A: 24, and your whole life ahead of you right. Willy that was your chance to get away, to step away from the farm, to step away what it was doing to you. You know, Bill and I talked to a young guy who’s a killer out of Chilliwack. And he was a young guy, his parent’s are dairy farmers and what he talked about is the fact that the farm was a trap. His parents’ health wasn’t good, and everyday from 4 until 7 until he dragged himself home to drop into bed asleep, he worked.
And he couldn’t take a holiday, because the cows needed to be milked and he couldn’t’ have a relationship because the cows and the work needed to be done, and he was completely tied to that life and it was like a noose around his neck, Willy, tightening, chOKing, chOKing the life out of him, chOKing the youth out of him.
And in him what that created is anger, anger at the unfairness of it, his sisters went off to university, he stayed. His parents got older, more frail, his chance to escape faded. Do you understand why Willy? His options, in our lives we want options, we want to be able to meet somebody we care about, not prostitutes, Willy.
We’ve got lots of statements from prostitutes about the fact that you turn them over and you have sex with them you never even loOK at them. You won’t ever loOK at them.
P: Yeah
A: Pardon
P: Really never had no, no sex with them?
A: Pardon?
P: Never had much sex with them
A: You never had much sex with them. No [and] then that’s true. But sometimes you did. (Pickton shakes head no.) Yeah, well I’ve got statements from them.
P: OK
A: I’ve read 'em Willy.
P: Yeah
A: You know what I mean.
P: The ones brought over and… those…
A: And you had the girls bring them out right? You’ve had, did Lisa ever bring out girls for you?
P: Who?
A: Isn’t it Lisa Yells, Yells, blond-haired girl, she used to be married to Blacky, the biker.
P: Yells, Yells Lee.
A: Yeah, did she ever bring girls out for you, or is your relationship with her not that?
P: Lee’s nice
A: No, but did she ever bring girls out for you?
P: No
F: All right, so the ones that brought girls out for you.
P: Lee, lee, lee Yells. Yells, that’s her name.
A: OK.
P: I couldn’t think of her name.
A: We know that Dinah brought girls out right? You, you don’t need to think about it Robert, you know, that’s a fact, we know that, you know that. All right.
We know that ah, Ellingsen did, Lynn correct? All right. What I don’t know right now is whether they were full participants in some of these killings OK, whether they were pushing you. We know that Lynn was blackmailing you. You’ve told people that and we’ve got those statements and you know what, she is going to screw you again, like everything she’s done to you, she is gonna screw you again, Willy.
And that’s one of the things you could stop. You choose to tell the truth here tonight, and that choice is yours. But you could screw her right back, because if you talk before she does there’s no need for us to make a deal with her, we could be down there arresting her later tonight if you tell the truth about what was going on, do you understand?
Don’t you get tired of being beat up by people, and abused and used Willy? Aren’t you tired of it? Isn’t it time you did something just for me, just for yourself? Don’t let these people beat you up, make you into a monster, use you, walk away from everything they’ve done, laughing and what, selling their story to CNN, so they make money on it. You know how it goes. That’s all in the palm of your hand all right.
Are you gonna be made a fool of by these people, don’t do it Willy. Don’t do it. You are finished, but at least deal with things now. Because I’ll tell you as a cop all right, as the guy running the file I want to get to the truth, and you know what, if Dinah, like your brother says, has killed some of these girls, maybe that’s not true, maybe that’s just you know, you just want to try and explain why we’re going to find bodies OK. Do you understand?
But if she has, or if Lynn knew and was still bringing the girls out, which is what I think, and Dinah was, then don’t let them make money and make themselves famous and make you loOK worse and drive you into the dirt Willy.
Cause you have the power right here and right now to put a stop to this, and you know all you gotta do is tell the truth. We sort it out cause suddenly when you tell the truth they have no more power to hurt you.
They have no more power to make money off you, they have no more power to make deals OK. Cause I’m telling you that’s how it works.
Her lawyer’s in negotiating right now, Lynn’s and you know she can hurt you, you know that, and she has hurt you. She’s blackmailed you, she’s betrayed you and she’s gonna do it again.
Willy, don’t lay down and let them stomp all over you do you understand, is that reasonable, does that make sense to you? That’s what I am saying, you know, you’re sitting there wondering should I, should I give them this information, should I deal with this, what’s in it for me? There’s lots in it for you. T here’s lots in it for you, because you make a decision am I gonna be used by these people over and over and over and over, people you helped, Willy?
You could have killed those two girls, you didn’t did you? Do you see what I mean, you could have though, but you didn’t because you care about those girls. And now they have done this to you, it’s not right Willy, it’s not right, it’s not right that she blackmailed you, it’s not right what they are doing, don’t let them sue you.
I’m holding out my hand to you, I’m offering you a chance to have some dignity, to walk, to walk through this thing. To stop being used by people, to not let them win and you lose.
Or you know that somebody who blackmailed you, made fun of you, ridicules you when she is talking to other people, in other words talks down about you. Are you gonna let her win again? All for some lost cause Willy? Cause it is a lost cause. The evidence against you is overwhelming, I mean I’ve touched on a small fraction of it, it literally is pouring in so fast that I have to bring in more and more people just to organize it.
And I sit there and I write, I’ve written about 5 noteboOKs over the past couple of weeks. Well that’s an exaggeration, about three, three big full noteboOKs of evidence as it just comes in, I can’t even keep it straight myself Willy.
It’s so powerful; it’s like a giant avalanche coming down the mountain, OK. And it’s over, it’s over whether you choose to talk about it or not, it’s over.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:27:07 GMT -5
But if you choose not to talk about it, the families of these people get hurt more, cause it is going to take time for us to dig up the girls or whatever is left all right and I don’t want that. I want closure for those families; it’s breaking their hearts.
You get used, we will end up making deals with, with Dinah, she’s already you know, she’s not at the lawyer stage yet, but she’s negotiating, she, she had a good meeting with our two members that flew out there.
Her family wants her to cooperate, you know, that’s just a matter of time. Now that you’re, now that you’re in custody she know, she knows that you’re dangerous to her, cause you know what she done and you know what Lynn’s done.
OK, so it’s gonna become a race to see who, who deals with things first. If you let them win you’ve just let them win again Willy. You’ve just let them win again and that’s a mistake, that’s a mistake you know. Dave knows it’s over…
P: Well the best thing I gotta talk to Dinah anyways before I do anything anyways…
A: I’m sorry you gotta what?
P: I got to talk to Dinah anyways before anything.
A: To say what? Like Dinah can I, is it all right if I go and show them the bodies?
P: No
A: Willy loOK at me for a sec, OK.
P: I gotta talk to her anyways first.
A: Well you’re not gonna be able to talk to her. All right. Our people are gonna be negotiating with her over the next little while and they’ll come to some agreement. Dave is saying all right, Dave told Mark and Bruce this morning, that it’s all going to be over, that there are bodies, and that you didn’t kill them all. All right but, but loOK at me Willy all right. He’s already told them…
P: There are bodies?
A: That there’s murder, been murders and he said you told him OK. I think he wants to believe in some ways that Dinah killed some of these girls and that, for some of them, you’ve just helped get rid of the bodies.
OK, that, that is probably partially true, Robert, partially true. Well maybe, maybe it’s not, maybe it was just you couldn’t tell your own brother you’d done this. OK. You know that, you know
which is the truth, whether she did or whether it's all you, and Robert loOK at me for a sec, I’m only asking for the truth. Do you understand that? That’s what you need to focus on right now. Cause if you tell a bunch of lies and stories, then Lynn wins, do you know what I mean? I know that you still, you clearly have feelings for Dinah don’t you? OK.
Do you understand if Dinah has killed these girls then she has to deal with that, do you understand that? Does that make sense to you? If she hasn’t, you know, then we need to know that, so we’re not loOKing at her as a killer.
P: Yeah, but I gotta talk to her anyways first, before I say anything.
A: No. But OK, let’s examine that for a second Willy. Tell me why we should let you do that.
P: Well I’d like to talk to her.
A: No, no, no I know, but, but let me ask you this, you know, I mean if you were a cop, why would you, why would you allow that to happen? If you were in my shoes?
P: Well. I just want to talk to her.
A: I know, but I mean why should I as a policeman, allow two suspects to talk to each other.
P: (Pause) Well, I am not a suspect anymore am I?
A: No, well yeah, you’re charged, you’re...
P: There you are. So I’m not a suspect anymore.
A: Well you’re still a suspect in all the other ones. Right.
P: It’s gonna come out anyways right?
A: Pardon?
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:27:41 GMT -5
P: It’s gonna come out anyways right?
A: Yeah, it may take…
P: About myself, it doesn’t matter.
A: What’s the point?
P: That’s what I am saying.
A: OK. Let me ask you this Willy then…
P: But I gotta talk to her first.
A: No, well then let’s just deal with one step at a time. I know you care about Dinah, what about Lynn, how do you feel about her?
P: OK. I think she is a nice person.
A: Um, hum. Did you think she was nice when she was blackmailing you? Well you didn’t, did you? No one likes to be blackmailed, come on, let’s be honest with each other right.
P: Yeah.
A: OK. I mean you’re angry…
P: She, she did blackmail me.
A: Know she did.
P: Time and time over. Time and time over.
A: She says it was because she walked in when you were skinning a girl.
P: Yeah right.
A: Well Willy, we’ve had you I’m telling you right now. We’ve got statements from other people saying you’ve done that. Willy, we’ve got people saying that you used to have sex with them when they were dead, that you were…
P: Oh yeah, right.
A: Well I’m telling you…
P: OK.
A: That you know what, how bad things are or were, what the situation is right. You know whether you are the worst monster to ever come down the pike here in Canada…
P: (Laughing)
A: … or not. You know whether you’ve killed, killed fifty women or, or more because one thing Bill didn’t say to you OK, that those eight unidentified women’s DNA, Willy they are all in blood. Not, not, not this, loOK at my hand, (Adam puts hand on wall) it’s not this, it’s blood. Blood’s all over your, your place.
And do you want to know what, in that trailer, there’s more blood, there’s not just, not just ah Mona Wilson, there’s, there’s other blood in there that’s gonna probably [be from] other kill sites. Do you know what’s gonna happen they, they’re moving the lab right on site, we’re actually putting up a lab there right now there are nine trailers on your property. All right.
They’ve devised a method where they’re gonna be able to separate, ah, rapidly the pig blood from human blood. They’re gonna be moving into the slaughterhouse, Willy, I absolutely believe we’re gonna find the human blood in there, what about that? Where do we go then?
When everybody’s won except you, where do we go? When the deals have been made with the woman who was blackmailing you, when she’s escaped her responsibility, see you only get one chance. You only get one chance and if you want to let her win, get used again I saw how you felt about being blackmailed. No one likes to be blackmailed, but for the moment Willy, in your life, you have a chance to pay back. And if you choose not to, then the sleeper’s just used you again.
Because the reality is some of these guys who are talking about things that you’ve done and there’s lots of them. All right. You know Bill showed you know, one and you listened to one but the reality is, is that you may have things you can say about them, to even things up.
But the only way you can do that is by telling the truth and by dealing with it. So you wonder what’s in it for you, Willy, it’s a chance not to get kicked in the chops again by these people. All right.
Cause the other side of it, I mean we all try and protect ourselves you know, we all try and protect ourselves. You know, Willy, if a doctor said to me 'Don you got cancer in your right arm all right.' If he said to me 'well I’m gonna chop your arm off' do you think I would want my arm chopped off Willy? Do you think I would?
But if I knew that if I didn’t deal with my arm, if, I knew that it was gonna turn into gangrene and I would die, then I’d make a decision don’t I, logically I make a decision that you know, I’m finished if I don’t do this.
Well Willy you’re finished OK, you are finished and the question you need to ask yourself is, 'am I gonna be used by everybody every time I turn around right into the end?' Cause your bargaining power is disappearing.
Cause in the end if you choose not to tell all right, the investigation simply keeps rolling, the search continues, unfortunately the families, they have to live with uncertainty for another year as we dig and find the DNA and the teeth and the hair and everything
(Pickton Laughs).
What you laugh, I know cause I know you really don’t care.
P: I don’t think you’ll find anything.
A: Pardon?
P: You won’t find anything. You won’t find anything cause there’s nothing there.
A: Well Willy, I don’t believe you. LoOK me in the eyes. We’ll find it. (Pickton shakes head ‘no’) Willy we’ll find it. Like are you so foolish that you can’t see what we’re gonna do.
You can’t see the millions we’re gonna spend, we’re gonna fine-tooth-comb that. You think we’re not gonna find things, we’ve got your trailer, we’ve got your mobile home, we’ve got all the evidence that you lived in there, all right. We know that you lived in the basement before that, we don’t know when your killing started,Willy, we don’t know when the killing startedall right.
There’s things we don’t know, I’m, I’m not gonna kid you about that. We don’t know whether you started killing back in the 80’s…
P: Oh yeah right. (Pickton rubs his eyes)
A: But Willy we don’t. We don’t know whether you started killing. Ssometime in the early 90’s all right. I’m thinking at a minimum by ’97 you were full blown into it. OK. And like I say, we can associate 12 to you already and we have just started. Just started all right.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:28:04 GMT -5
Cause we toOK down the wallpaper all right that had the blood on it and now in behind was the old wood panelling but we’re gonna go over every square inch of that all right, and that blood gets in there, it dries up and it would last there for 500 years, in that state and Willy, we’ll just pull it out. You changed the carpet so you remember?
P: No
A: Yes. Cause there’s no carpet in there. (Fordy leaves)
P: Yeah.
A: Do you remember, we’ve got the person who changed that carpet. We’re gonna go in, we’re gonna take up the floor and the blood and stuff all right, from all the girls, is gonna be there Willy. And there’s nothing you can do to change that all right. All you can do is end up losing Willy, because the only power you have is right now.
Right now, people care about your story. But once the deals have been made with Lynn, and the deals have been made with Dinah, and the deals have been made with the other people all right, to get you know, deal with you, and it won’t matter. You’ll have no bargaining power anymore.
P: Now I gotta talk to Dinah.
A: Well you’re not gonna talk to Dinah. Willy loOK at me, you’re not gonna talk to Dinah, we’re gonna talk to Dinah and either you’re gonna deal with this, or we’re gonna make a deal with her. All right. She’s already come part way, she’s already talked about coaching you on the Cobalt and the ah, black bag that’s got all the women’s clothing in it. All right, she’s already told us about that discussion, of coaching you. You know what I mean by coaching.
P: (Refers to another woman.) I talked to her already.
A: Yeah, well we talked to her after you talked to her.
P: Yeah
A: OK, well she, I’ll tell you what, she hasn’t phoned you back.
P: She can’t get a hold of me unless I phone her.
A: All right, I mean obviously Dinah’s focused on her own, what’s good for her right. But I think there’s a difference, I think that Lynn wants to hurt you, I don’t think she likes you, all right. And you were money to her when she was blackmailing you and you gave it to her all right. And we both discussed that you know how you felt about that, you were angry, you wanted her killed.
P: Who?
A: Lynn.
P: No way.
A: Really Willy, you’re sure about that?
P: Um, hum.
A: (Adam leans forward) And if somebody came forward, a couple of people and said that, that you want …
P: Why, why would I, why would I phone the paramedic on her, when she almost dropped dead?
A: Was she blackmailing you by that time?
P: Well I mean, I wasn’t worried about the blackmail, but the problem was I was more worried about her health.
A: Right on, but and that, you tell me something, you, you try and save her life.
P: I did, I saved it twice.
A: OK, and then she ends up blackmailing you. What does that tell you about her Willy? Would you blackmail someone who saved you life? Let me ask you a question, would you? You wouldn’t would you? Do you agree you wouldn’t do it? (Adam leans back) I know that much about you, I was a young kid in Coquitlam and I knew about you. Willy would you blackmail somebody who saved your life, you wouldn’t would you? You see Willy that’s what is puzzling, is that you have done good things for people, do you understand.
I’ve got those people, not everybody who has something to say about you, says you’re a bad guy. You’ve done a lot of good things. Do you understand? But Willy something’s gone haywire, do you understand, (Pickton puts head in hand) something’s gone haywire. Like I mean, are, you know it’s not normal to kill women, I mean you know that right?
Do we agree on that, that’s it’s not a good thing to do, that’s not a normal thing to do? Something’s happened whether you, whether you came to hate them Willy, whether you came to blame them for, for having Hepatitis but somewhere your thinking went off. Do you understand?
But what is at issue here, what this conversation is about, is that, is there a good Willy Pickton, is there a good human being in there somewhere. And I can tell you, having worked in Port Coquitlam back in the late 70’s, is that I did, I can remember hearing good things about you. You know, you ask some, I mean everyone said you were into stealing cars and, and what have you so what, right, that’s life. (Adam leans further back) Do you understand Willy?
Do you know something, if you don’t take the chance and the opportunity to try and explain then every good thing you’ve done in your life, all the things that your mother would be proud of, and your dad would have been proud of, are gone, are lost. And if people can paint you Willy, as just a one, simple evil, evil hideous creature, who not only probably all of these women, but maybe would have liked to have killed you know, grabbed women off the street. Maybe would have you know, sexually assaulted ah, the kids that came around the park, you now, the farm.
You know, we know that you did nice things for some of the kids right. You gave them riding lessons, you, you know, you were good to some people weren’t you? Do you want saying that 'oh, well so and so used to go over to Willy Pickton’s, well he probably had sex with her when she was a little girl.' He probably did this, he was probably screwing little boys. You know gee, he, you know, the next story will be that you were near schools, stalking kids.
Like that’s how people are Willy. Take ownership of the mistakes you’ve made, but don’t take ownership of everyone else’s horrible thoughts. Willy, people are gonna be loOKing for answers and if you don’t give them the answers they’re gonna make up a thousand stories.
I’m telling you, mark my words. (Adam leans forward) You know, I know that you’ve had some bad experiences when you were, when you were young. I know Dana talked about how when you were really young about your pet calf, you know, and the shock and the horror when, when you know, you went into the barn and there was your pet strung with it’s throat cut. Do you remember that, telling her that story?
P: Um, hum.
A: OK, those, those hurt us when we’re kids all right. That hurts us, that ah, hurts us as to why would our dad do that to us. He knew what that calf meant to you. Would I be right in thinking that sometimes your dad, sometimes farmers can be very sort of cold about livestock and stuff. If you had a son, would you just go and kill his favourite calf? Would you Willy? (Pause 10 seconds) I’m just asking a question Willy, would you do that?
P: I don’t know what to say.
A: Do you think you would? Think back to how that made you feel, would you want to make you son feel that way. Picture yourself back there, standing in that barn, loOKing at your calf, hanging there, dead and imagine, think back to how that felt inside here. What that little boy Robert Pickton felt, you were what, five years old?
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:28:33 GMT -5
Can you still, you still remember what it’s like to be that age. You hear pounding in your chest, scared to loOK, scared of what you might see. Do you remember that feeling Willy? And you opened the door, I’ll bet you can put yourself right back there. And there, there he is.
Did that calf have a name? You’ve got an excellent memory, I know that, do you remember what the name of the calf was?
(Picktonshakes head “no”)
No. Or you don’t want to tell me.
(Pickton shakes head “no”)
Willy our lives are made up of things that change and alter us. OK, we think we’re heading in one direction and other things happen, OK.
When you were young you know, we start to get interested in sex OK. You know, you never got involved with girls, whether you were shy, whether the fact that the farm you know ah, you know working farm kids you know sometimes they go to school and ah, you know, we still smell of the farm.
I grew up in the Prairies, I know about farms OK. And people laugh at us, did they laugh at you Willy? Did you feel separate from them? Yeah…
P: I don’t know, not really.
A: Different.
P: Uh-huh.
A: No.
P: Just work.
A: Yeah, work. You worked on the farm, but did you hand out with other kids?
P: No.
A: No. And you know what, we both know that we all need to belong, Willy, that’s why you paid these girls to come out and spend time with you, even if you weren’t going to have sex with them, we need to belong don’t we?
We’re not Willy. Willy, I don’t know you, I don’t know what , what’s inside your head OK, but I know that you need people, I know you need people, we all do.
And I don’t believe that right into the core of your being you are as much of a monster as people are gonna portray you to be. Because if you were, you would have killed or hurt some of these other good people who are out there. You live in Port Coquitlam, there’s schools nearby all right.
I just finished talking to a guy who was dragging women into a van and raping them all right and he was caught at a Coquitlam school yard, planning the next attack on a little girl. Willy are you the same kind of guy as that? Have you ever hurt anybody like that?
OK, those are these are things you can talk about, Willy. I talked to a guy years ago who killed his two little babies, killed his wife and lit a fire to burn his five year old son to death because he wanted to have sex with another woman. Cause he was bored. Willy are you like that? Would you kill your family, do you see what I mean?
So Willy, the mistakes that you made all right, they’re driven by certain things. They’re driven I think by anger, and stuff that’ s happened with you. But you’re not at a schoolyard Willy are you, you’re not trying to grab little girls off the street?
There’s absolutely no indication you have ever done anything like that and if you tell me that you haven’t I will believe you. Can you loOK me in the eye and tell me that ' Don, I have never done anything like that.'
P: I haven’t done anything like that.
A: Can I believe you when you say that? Is that true Willy that you’ve never done anything like that, have you ever hurt any kids ever? You promise me. OK. There’s reasons then that this happened, do you understand, do you see what I mean? Because if you were just a monster, I’m not a serial killer expert, I’m not even sure how I got involved in this file, all right. I’m ah, fairly experienced major crime investigator but I don’t claim to understand the inner workings of what demons drive us Willy, to make mistakes, the kind you’ve made.
Do you, do you understand that? I’m not trying to pass myself off as an expert, but I know that there are serial killers who would have been grabbing little girls and little boys at the opportunity. You can’t tell me you, you haven’t driven past kids that you could have grabbed over the last 10 years, and, and never thought of it, or let me, can I ask you another question Willy please, and be honest with me. Can you loOK me in the eye and I’m asking you…
P: Yeah (Takes a drink)
A: Have you ever fantasized about grabbing any kids or anything like that. Like were the kids in Port Coquitlam or anything in danger from you? (Pickotn shakes head no) Is that true?
P: Yeah
A: OK, thank you then. (Shake hands) All right I, I raised my family in Port Coquitlam and I want to believe that all right, is that fair?
P: Um, hum.
A: Do you understand why we as parents, as a community, want to try and understand this thing Willy? Cause you, you’ve done good and yet you’ve done horrible, horrible things, do you understand? And we just want to understand. Nobody wants to make you some monster that you’re not but people want to understand. They want to understand how can Willy Pickton be good to kids, help them with horses, help them do stuff, be nice to your nieces and be well thought of and yet there’s this dark side here.
You could help people understand that. Do you understand, do you see that? And in helpng us to understand, you want to know what’s, what’s in it for you to tell the truth, really, besides making sure that Lynn doesn’t get to laugh at you again.
When we understand when things happen do you, do you remember ah, I don’t know if you followed it but there was a young girl grabbed in Maple Ridge, and murdered about a year ago, all right. He was the guy that had ah, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, in other words he was somewhat brain damaged.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:29:04 GMT -5
That was a horrible crime a little girl was taken away and she was sexually assaulted and murdered. But when people were able to understand what was happening with that person, then they focused instead of anger against him, at how society, how we had failed that person, all right.
Cause that’s what people are like Willy if you give them a chance to understand, all right, they’re willing to hold out their hand to you.
Willy that’s important to you, all right. Because you are going to continue on in life, Billy said to you that you are a survivor and you are strong OK, do you understand that Willy? (Adam leans back) When those two boars started fighting, do you remember that?
P: Um-hum
A: And you jumped in the middle, why did you jump in the middle of them?
P: To break them up
A: Yeah, I have never seen boars ah, fighting, is it a frightening thing?
P: Yeah, they kill each other.
A: Yeah, I have seen dogs fighting, have you ever seen two dogs, good size dogs fighting?
P: Yeah
A: It’s not something you want to get in the middle of is it?
P: Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
A: Exactly. But you know what I know Willy, is that knowing the right thing to do, in this case trying to stop the boars from killing each other, and having the courage to do it, is what being a man is all about.
You were taught that weren’t you and it is part of you. You saw what you had to do and you did it and you go hurt because of doing the right thing. Agreed all right. I know that, all right, I want always somebody who just pushed paper and watched other people do real police work all right. There was a time when I was on the street and I would get involved in things and I would do the right thing, even though it was dangerous, all right.
That’s a little hard for the younger people to believe that I actually did that, but that is true. It’s the same thing Willy all right. You have that in you, the ability to do the right thing but what’s happening here is you’re weighing, all right, you’re situation and I don’t blame me for that.
But I’m here to tell you that whether or not you say a word, this thing is over for you. But truly your future, how you’re viewed in prison, how you’re viewed, how you’re family is viewed, whether Dave toOK any part in this stuff all right. You know right now whether he’s involved. If he’s involved.
P: No he’s not.
A: Well only by you telling the truth can you clear. (Pickton takes drink) Now Willy if you tell the truth, people will believe you. You know what I did for years, I was a polygraph examiner, do you know what that is, a lie detector test. Have you ever heard of that?
(Pickton shakes head no)
Lie detector tells whether you’re telling the truth or not. That’s what I did, I became an expert at telling when people were telling the truth or not, for a while, probably forgotten all that now, but I used to be pretty good at it.
Willy, when you tell the truth, when somebody loOKs into your eyes and tells you the truth, there’s a ring to it, there’s a believability to it. All right.
Now Willy I watched you when you denied being involved in these murders, and there’s no ring of truth to it. All right. I need you to know that and I know you’re not telling the truth. (Adam leans forward) But I can tell you that if you do tell the truth all right, I’ll know it, if there’s things you just can’t bring yourself to tell right now, do you understand that that’s OK.
Willy, sometimes we get into things bit by bit and we end up doing things that we never want anyone to see the light of day, we never you know, be it the allegations that you had sex with some of these girls when they were dead.
P: That’s not true.
A: But if you don’t tell the truth about it, if you don’t help us to understand the whole picture, every horrible thing in the world will be said about you. Do you understand Willy? Everybody who wants to be mean, everybody who wants to, laugh at you and ridicule you and make you a horrible, horrible creature is gonna win if you choose not to tell the truth.
You know, the psychologists, some of them are saying this is all about Willy Pickton torturing these women, that it, that you wanted, and you probably tortured them and enjoyed their screams and their agony as, you killed them over who knows how long a period of time.
See Willy some, some serial killers have done that. Willy if you’ve done it, you’ve done it OK, do you understand, but if it's not like that, OK, tell the truth. If it’s something that progressed it got out of control, if it was you know, you’re driven to it, do you know who Ridgeway is, Gary Ridgeway?
(Pickton shakes his head)
Gary Ridhgeway is the Green River Killer, all right. Green River murderer is the guy who’s killed ah, all the hoOKers down in Seattle. He may be the only person in North America who’s killed more women than you. OK, it’s right now, we don’t know who’s killed more, whether it’s you or him. He killed about 42 it loOKs like.
P: (Laughing) (Shaking head “no”)
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:29:27 GMT -5
do you know who Ridgeway is, Gary Ridgeway?
(Pickton shakes his head)
Gary Ridhgeway is the Green River Killer, all right. Green River murderer is the guy who’s killed ah, all the hoOKers down in Seattle. He may be the only person in North America who’s killed more women than you. OK, it’s right now, we don’t know who’s killed more, whether it’s you or him. He killed about 42 it loOKs like.
P: (Laughing) (Shaking head “no”)
A: Well Willy I don’t know. I don’t have a crystal ball, Willy, I don’t know whether you’ve been killing for 15 years, for 10 years. Why are you laughing?
P: Just the way you said it there. f**k that’s a lot of people.
A: Well it, but Willy you’ve killed a lot of people, like let me ask you a question? All right without telling me the number…
P: What’s that?
A: You know, do you, do you know how many it is? Just, take your time and think about it, do you know the number or, or is it just started to just you don’t know anymore?
P: I don’t know. I don’t know.
A: I’ve run this investigation for a year, when we finally finish, if you were to tell me the truth, can I close down my investigation or are there gonna be girls here that I’m gonna have to loOK for some other person who has taken their lives.
P: What’s that?
A: I’ve run the investigation for a year, my question to you is, when you decide to tell the truth, can I close my investigation or is there gonna be like you know, a section of this that I’m gonna have to loOK for someone else who’s done it or is it, is it all you? I know it’s you for the last while, all right, cause I’m telling you it, the evidence is just pouring in.
Do I need to loOK for somebody else for the older ones. (Nods head “yes”) Yeah, OK. All right. Willy had anyone ever helped you do it? Any of these guys that are talking about you, are they more involved in this than, ah, they’re telling us?
P: I shouldn’t be talking without a lawyer present.
A: No, and you don’t have to. But I appreciate, I appreciate what you’ve given me so far and I, I want to thank you for that. Do you know a guy named Vickers? He’s a Hells Angel. He knows, he knows you guys. Is he involved with this?
P: (Shrugs) I don’t know.
A: Or, or you don’t want to say?
P: I don’t know, but there is so many people involved in this it’s way over. Way over.
A: Let me ask you this question Willy. Right now we’re loOKin’ at, at you and probably maybe three of the girls getting you, bringing the prostitutes out to you. OK. Are there other people, is this bigger than we think?
P: I don’t know.
A: Well we know, we know that Lisa brought girls out to you. Right. We know Dinah’s brought…
P: Lisa?
A: Yeah, Ellingsen, isn’t it?
P: Lynn,
A: Lynn, I’m sorry, I’m getting tired, I’ve worked a lot of hours;
P: Lisa, Lisa no, not lisa, Lisa…
A: (Further along in the interrogaton). Can you answer any question and be truthful with me?
P: What’s that? I don’t know if can answer it or not.
A: Would you do this for me, if you can’t answer, just say Don I'm sorry I can’t answer that. The story so far that I’ve heard is that you killed these girls quite quickly. Willy did you keep them alive and torture them? (pause 12 sec) Some of them or no.
P: Well I shouldn’t answer that question because I am not even in court yet.
A: This isn’t about court right now.
P: I know.
A: It’s you know, obviously everything we say to each other has got to go to court, but we’re past the point of whether or not you did this. (Adam touches Pickton’s left arm) But Willy, loOK at me (Pickton loOKs at Adam) please for a sec, the families need to kinda know and I’d like to know all right. (Adam removes hand from Pickton)
Cause if you killed them quickly then no matter what happened to them, it doesn’t matter does it. Once you’re gone, it doesn’t matter or if they were so drugged maybe that they didn’t know, they didn’t feel the pain. That’s important Willy cause it speaks of you, it speaks to your ability to hold your head up. Do you know what I mean, like you made your mistakes that you made, do you understand? But now...
P: I made my own grave.
A: Yeah. Yeah, but did you…
P: Now I’m gonna sleep in it.
A: Yeah, you did.
P: For the rest of my life.
A: I know. But I’d like to be able to loOK at the, at the brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers of these women and if it’s the truth let them know that it’s not a situation where you kept them chained up and tortured them and, and revelled in their screams that, you did find a way of either chOKing them quickly and, and painlessly and that they went fast. Cause that’s important to them.
Cause it speaks to you all right. (Pickton takes a drink) did they go quickly Willy? I know you gave them drugs, I know you bought lots of drugs for people before they went out there, did you allow them to shoot up and…
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:29:50 GMT -5
P: I give em money for drugs or whatever but the problem is I mean, whatever they do with the money is up to them.
A: Yeah. But is this gonna ultimately when, when everything is out in the open are we gonna be loOKing at stories of days of torture and, and cutting their fingers off, and cutting ... their bodies while they’re still alive and, is it gonna be that sort of a thing Willy?
(Shakes head “no”)
Is it just gonna be some horrible, horrible thing that we can never understand ‘til we die? Or is it gonna be just a sort of a simple thing that you know, you would get them down, you would handcuff them you know, just sort of quietly chOKe them unconscious and, and that would be the end. Something we can understand Willy. That’s important, that’s gonna be important for Dave to know, it’s gonna be important for Nancy to know, it’s gonna be important for your sister to know.
I don’t know if you believe in God, or if you believe that your mother’s up there watching you or your father. Those things are important. It’s important for these people to know. Do you understand Willy? (Adam’s pager goes off) Willy only you can tell me how much these people suffered, but whether it was fairly quick. Did any of them stay alive for days? Hours?
P: I don’t know, I mean we are going over our heads here.
A: Pardon?
P: Going over hour heads here.
A: Why do you say that Willy?
P: Cause I’m not supposed to talk about it
A: Do you know what I’ve learned though? Do you want to know…. (Skipping ahead) ….Do you need to use the washroom or anything? (Pickton shakes head) Man you are quite the guy. Can I get you anything to eat or drink?
P: I don’t want to eat now.
A: Can’t eat?
P: I don’t deserve to eat.
A: When I talk to these families how bad is this gonna be Willy? Give me that, how bad is it gonna be?
P: How bad is what gonna be?
A: How bad is their deaths, are they, are they tortured or slow, are you a sadist, do you know what that means? (Pickton shakes head “no”) Can we, can we be open with each other for just a minute? Willy what are you good at?
P: Whatever.
A: What are you the best at, what do you do, we all like to be good at something or, or there’s things we pride ourselves in, and I’ve read the files on you, I’ve read what my investigators say, I’ve read what people say all right. I’ve heard about your statement that you gave once to Constable Cater and I have some thoughts but I just want to ask you that question. What are you good at, what do you take pride in? Tell me that.
P: Anything
A: Like what, give me a for instance.
P: Whatever I do,
A: Give me a for instance...
P: Building.
A: OK, carry that on.
P: Doing this, doing that.
A: Willy it struck me, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it was in the statement to Cater a long time ago, that he asked you…
P: Who’s he?
A: He’s a young policeman that I work with now …. if I asked you that question, what’s the best day of your life, what can you remember, what would you say it was?
P: Don’t know.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:30:11 GMT -5
if I asked you that question, what’s the best day of your life, what can you remember, what would you say it was?
P: Don’t know.
A: Do you remember answering him that it was a day that you, you ah, slaughtered 40, 50 pigs. That you started at 7 in the morning and you slaughtered right through ‘til one, two in the morning, do you remember that day?
P: Yeah, that was, that was a good day at work, but that’s not the best day.
A: Oh, OK. So that was, you answered it that way. It was the best day at work.
P: I mean, it was, a lot of people were there.
A: OK Willy. What everyone says all right, one of the things they say about you is you know the pig business. Is that true?
P: Um-hum
A: That you are, you are good at slaughtering, you take pride in your work, you do it well..
P: And do it clean.
A: And you enjoy it.
P: I do it clean.
A: But loOK at me for a second, Willy, you enjoy it?
P: I don’t know if I enjoyed it or not, I just did it for a job.
A: You know Willy, I think there’s a part of you that likes killing.
P: Hum?
A: (Further along in the interrogation.) Did the will force you to stay on the farm until you were 42 or something, is that accurate?
P: You guys know more about me you do, than I do. (Takes a drink)
A: Willy we haven’t even begun to learn about you... We’ve collected thousands and thousands of exhibits and have only just begun.
P: Exhibits of what?
A: Blood, hair, identification all right. You know how you were telling that story to everybody that would listen about finding this stuff in cars and stuff, do you remember that, at the early stages? Do you remember, cause you were scared and you thought 'I’ll tell some stories' Willy, that’s what you did.
P: No.
A: Yes. How much do you want to bet?
P: It’s true.
A: It’s true you did find things in cars? (Adam Leans forward)… SKIP… You’re locked into that story. You told too many people.
P: It is...
A: And you’ve said 'gee, that’s a nice loOKing inhaler,' I toOK it into my house.
P: I toOK it into my shop first.
A: OK, and then 'I toOK it into my house and that is how the cops found it.' ...the fact that they’re layered in your garbage, the fact that there’s other material that is in your house, the fact that there’s DNA, yours and hers linked together, Willy, do you see what I mean?
P: Layered? Where did you find, where is this at?
A: We have an article all right, that I’m not prepared to tell you what is it, that has got her DNA on it like that, her DNA.
P: Um, hum.
A: And then it’s got your DNA together… Because I’ve got blood from 8 women I can’t identify, I’ve got twelve others, that, that I can connect with you, the numbers are growing. Willy loOK at me for a second, we are so far beyond you telling me lies now.
P: …it’s the truth
A: … that I’m hurt, I’m hurt
P: It’s true. Honestly, that’s the truth. I’ll tell you right now
A: The only way I’m gonna believe that, all right is and don’t lie to me Willy...
P: I’m not lying to you.
A: All right, is that, that incident then, got you on the road to killing, that you started hating and it toOK you over, and if that’s the truth, tell me now. Is that what happened? You just went OK. Is that true, that there was no killing before her? (Pickton shakes head “no”) Do you shake my hand and, and promise me that’s truth. Cause if you don’t, don’t do it if you’re, if it’s not the truth.
P: It’s the truth.
A: Then shake my hand, you promise me we’ll find nothing prior to her that you’ve done?
P: Should not be.
A: Well tell me the truth, if there’s a couple then tell me, if it’s, if…
P: Should not be, nothing.
A: It’s all afterwards. OK, shake my hands then and you give me your word. Man to man. (Shake hands) OK now, let’s be clear on what you promising here, do you think there could be a couple before her or no. (Pickton shakes head “no”) Be sure on it OK, because it’s important to the investigation. Did that thing fill you so full of raqe Willy, that you just couldn’t help yourself or like, how did you even get started killing, just tell me about it. Do you know yourself?
P: I don’t know. Don’t know.
A: Did they start by accident?
P: I don’t know.
A: Take your time (P takes a drink) (IND) (Pause 20 sec) What would happen would you just start to rage inside Willy or how do you think it happened?
P: Don’t know.
A: Did and I don’t want, I want you to tell me the truth. Is that fair can you loOK at me for a second Willy? We’ve come a long ways, can you promise to tell the truth here and if you don’t know something can you tell me that? Cause I’m trying to understand OK, do you understand that? The first ones was it a situation where maybe you caught them trying to steal and it got out of hand or, or anything like that or was it just anger and rage toOK you over?
P: I don’t know. I don’t know.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:30:38 GMT -5
A: Let me ask you this question, was it hard to do at first, and then it just gets easier, you don’t think about it as much, it doesn’t make you feel bad afterwards? Did you feel bad after them at first?
P: I don’t know.
A: Yeah, I think you do Willy… SKIP…origin, you know they infected you, they stabbed you, they used you, they stole from you, didn’t they Willy. And you lashed back, not at everyone though right.
(Pickton shakes head “no”)
How come you spared some of them?
P: They’re nice people.
A: And so the nice ones you let go? It’s OK, it’s OK to tell the truth Willy. Do you think that’s why you started this, was it just anger, rage.
P: I’m not supposed to be talking to you right?
A: No. You don’t have to, but it’s over you know that.
P: Don’t matter what I say or anything else, it’s still over.
A: LoOK at me for a sec. You’re a human being Willy, it does matter.
P: As I said, it doesn’t matter what I say, it’s over anyway.
A: But you have to live and your family has to live with what’s happened and if you’re not a sadist… SKIP (full page of Adam)…Eventually something’s got to give and this is… What happened… SKIP…
You know if you have been hurting these girls and killing them way back into the 80’s (Pickton shakes head “no”) I really would like you to tell me that. So when you tell me it started after (delete), I can believe that? Can I tell my investigators hey, we need to loOK for who doing it before Willy started, is that, cause I don’t want to waste their time Willy, is that fair?
P: I’m not the only guy
A: How many do you think you’ve done?
P: I don’t know. (Takes a drink.)
A: Would it be 20?
P: I don’t know.
A: You’ve got an idea though Willy. You’re a guy who knows the dates of things, you know. You’ve a good idea. 15, 20, where do you think it is, or thirty. It doesn’t matter, just tell the truth.
P: I don’t know.
A: Well, I can put about 12 to you right now, OK, so there’s those 12 right. Ah shall we start from sort of the most recent and go backwards? You did Sereena, we know that Willy, agreed?
P: Sreeena
A: Sereena Abotsway, I’d have to and I apologize because I am not a front line investigator, like I’m a manger, should I get in, somebody in here who knows these girls and we can discuss it or would you just want to talk to me. (Fordy comes in and gives him a piece of paper then leaves)
So this, this is Sereena,all right. OK, so we know that you, you know, you did take her life, all right. Just tell me about that, let’s start, let’s take little steps all right. I think you know right now, unless their pictures are so different you are not sure, I think you could, you could make a choice and just reach out and touch the ones that ah, that you’ve done Willy you know the ones that…
P: (Laughing) You’re making me more of a mass killer than I am.
A: Well how bad is it, how big is it?
P:I don’t know.
A: Well is it 10, 20?
P: I don’t know.
A: Well is it five, tell me you’ve done more than 5, we’re gonna be spending millions of dollars. Well it’s more than 5, we both know that. Agreed?
P: I don’t know.
A: Willy, come on. We don’t need to play games with each other. Are you just not quite convinced yet you want to tell me the details of the killings? Is that, that’s what it is isn’t it? Come on, tell me the truth. Are you still thinking what’s in it for me?
P: What’s in it for me?
A: OK.
P: If you don’t mind me asking.
A: No, that’s a fair question. Willy, firstly,…
P: What’s, what’s gonna happen if I say something but I shouldn’t say or what’s gonna happen to me, cause I haven’t got, I don’t have a lawyer present. I don’t know nothing, [nothing] nobody just [what] by myself.
A: OK.
P: So I don’t know what I’m to do, what I’m getting up against. But I don’t want to admit to anything.
A: All right. Firstly, you need to understand where I’m coming from OK. Is that fair?
P: Um, hum.
A: So I’m just gonna be completely upfront with you. Willy, I know that we can convict you. I know we can convict you on probably three because I haven’t even talked about some of the evidence that I have yet on some of the others. I haven’t even bothered because there is so much evidence. Like do you understand that, and I’m not doing that to be mean to you, but I need to test your truthfulness ultimately. Does that make sense to you?
Like when you decide when we, when you decide to tell me everything I need to know that oh ya, OK, Willy’s not just claiming to have killed girls he didn’t kill. He’s telling me the truth.
P: But there’s another way to put it, if I say what, what, what you guys want to hear, you guys will pull the fences down and everything else, move out of there. Is that what you’d do?
A: No, no and the reason is Willy. Is that I know you, all right. I know you, all right, and I know that there is gonna be some full bodies buried in there, all right.
P: (Over talking)
A: Pardon?
P: Well I wish you luck.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:32:21 GMT -5
A: You’re saying that they all went to the rendering plant?
P: The rendering plant?
A: Well wherever you toOK them.
P: So if I tell you what, what you want to know, you’ll pull the fence all down.
A: Well…
P: No you would not. Yes or no, just…
A: What do you mean pull the fence down?
P: Take the fences all down, and…
A: Go away?
P: Yeah.
A: Well first…
P: You want, you want me, you got me already.
A: Yeah, I got you, you’re absolutely right.
P: So I’m just, I’m asking from your point of view, yes or no. I want to be straight.
A: Yeah, then let me be completely straight with you. Absolutely no. No. Willy I’m not prepared to, to make a trade…
P: OK. Well why don’t you go to the higher up and let me know.
A: No, no. I’m as high up believe me, I’m way too high up to be sitting here.
P: No, I mean, no I meant, I meant the, I meant…
A: I am high up.
P: OK (Over talking)
A: I’m in charge.
P: Because if I tell you everything you want to know, you guys back out.
A: No. See it can’t happen, it’s not gonna happen. Willy I’m, I can’t, I’m not gonna negotiate. But here’s what, here’s, here’s the way it goes all right. This statement that you’re giving here, this talk we’re having is admissible in court.
P: Um, hum.
A: And what would make it inadmissible in other words, what would make it of no value is if you and I make a deal. I don’t…
P: I don’t want a deal.
A: No, no, no.
P: You have put a lot of fences on (Over talking)
A: No but you’re not, you’re not hearing me, you’re not hearing me.
P: OK
A: That’s of little no value to me because it’s not evidence anymore, all right.
P: No, then I’m talking about going to court or whatever.
A: What and pleading guilty?
P: Um, hum.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:33:21 GMT -5
A: To how many?
P: Whatever charged with.
A: No, no, no. No because I’m not, I don’t, you mean two?
P: No, I didn’t say two.
A: Well you’re only charged with two right now.
P: Two right now.
A: Like firstly…
P: It is, you says, you says, it’s more but…
A: Well yeah.
P: But I’ll finally admit to everything if you pull the fences down.
A: Well. But I want to firstly I’m, we’re not, I’m not making a deal. Right, can you understand that?
P: OK.
A: This is…
P: OK, well I just want, I just want to…
A: No, no but I want, I want to get a clear picture in my mind what you’re saying to me.
P: OK
A: But I am not, like understand, this is not a negotiation to make a deal. But I guess what I am saying is, are you talking about 20 girls, are you talking about 30, are you talking about what?
P: I’m talking about everything on my behalf.
A: Well but, Willy, what kind of numbers are we talking about?
P: Every, everything, everything die.
A: Pardon.
P: And then you let everything die off and you…
A: I told, I told you that’s a non-starter.
P: OK
A: OK. But let me ask you a question, all right, because I’m not gonna deal with how things will go in court, I’m not gonna deal with how [we] you know, do the investigation, I’m not, like I…
P: OK…
A: Do you know…
P: I mean, I, I’m only asking. There’s no problem, no, no harm in asking.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:34:16 GMT -5
A: Do you remember yeah, no, no, no I know. But, but I need you to understand…
P: (OVER TALKING) I just want to like to get, get everybody else’s lives back together again and get everything back to rest.
A: But then why don’t you do what’s right, for you and everyone else and, and for Nancy and your brother, and allow people to come to an understanding by at least telling me all right, don there’s 25, there’s 30, what, what is it Willy? Give me a number so I have an idea of what you’re saying.
P: I don’t know.
A: But you can’t lie to me. Don’t bother lying to me.
P: I’m not lying to you.
A: No, no, no I know, I see that. How many?
P: I don’t want to negotiate like that right at this stage. Cause then the problem then is I’ll be committed to something.
A: Well I’m, I’m not negotiating like…
P: OK.
A: I’m…
P: Cause, I’m, I’m like you I’m just asking.
A: Willy, you’re, you’re negotiating Willy, I’m not negotiating.
P: I’m asking you that, that’s all I’m asking, I was only asking you.
A: No, I know. OK, but you understand I’m not dealing. I’m not prepared to deal you know. I am prepared to tell you this.
P: Um, hum.
A: Is that no [ones] one is gonna be making a deal with, with ah, ah, Lynn right, to screw you if you choose to tell the truth here tonight. So that’s a, that is a win for you, that’s one win but that has nothing to do with, with ah, you know, deals in court or deals on, on evidence or what have you, like on, on the search. But it is a win Willy and never think it isn’t, all right. Because when you’re caught between a rock and a hard place, like you are, sometimes you can’t have…
P: But anyways like I says, think it over . A: I don’t have to think it over.
P: OK.
A: Because Willy, here’s our situation, all right. Is that I know we can move ahead and collect the, the evidence, all right. The reason…
P: But you’re, everything will go back to back to normal and everybody else will go, will go to their own place where they were before and start all over and, and so on and so forth. But the problem is if you like I, I know all the numbers, everything else so but that is neither here nor there. But…
A: But let me ask you, let me ask you a question, all right, just I want to clarify your knowledge base. I wasn’t there but years ago, when you guys were, had those trucks buried.
P: Yeah.
A: OK.
P: The trucks was never buried.
A: Well cars or whatever it was.
P: (Over talking)
A: A yellow mustang or something.
P: A yellow mustang.
A: Something, I don’t know Willy, here’s the point…
P: There was a couple of Ford pick-up trucks.
A: OK.
P: And they were put in, underneath a hog field pile, because somebody else was dismantling them over there and that was the story beginning, start to finish.
A: OK. They said you memory was so good Willy, that you walked into that field of muck, and… (Adam stands up)
P: It wasn’t muck, it wasn’t muck, it was a hog field.
A: OK, but you walked over…
P: And told them exactly where everything is, yeah.
A: And said 25 ft down…
P: No
A: You know whatever, what did you say to them?
P; No, it’s underneath that pile there, there’s some over there, and some over there, and some over there, and that’s it.
A: (Adam sits down) Do you have that capability to do that with these girls?
P: No.
A: Why not?
P: Cause you’re barking at the wrong tree.
A: You’re saying you didn’t dispose of them in there. (Pickton IND) Would there be any, my question would be this then, other than your word, other than your word is there, how could you prove to me that they’re somewhere else, like how would prove to me that they’re, how can you help me find them, that’s my question?
P: Can’t.
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Post by Sher on Feb 4, 2007 3:34:42 GMT -5
A: Then how can you explain to me that, that’s possible.
P: You gotta take my word for it.
A: Well Willy, how can we take your word for it? You won’t tell me the numbers whether it’s 20, 30, you know.
P: I just gonna blind folded here. Cause I have no lawyer present, no nothing.
A: No.
P: And like I said, I’m getting nailed to the cross.
A: Well yeah, you’re but let…
P: And the problem is I mean, I’m just only asking, it’s just something to think about.
A: Yeah, you want to negotiate…
P: Yes.
A: But Willy loOK at the position you’re in.
P: I know I’m in, I know I’m loOKing at the position I’m in. I’m burying myself deeper than I even have, ever have.
A: You tell me what’s the difference between us pulling together 12 charges against you and you’re admitting to 20, like what’s the difference, other than to the families.
P: Well.
A: No, no but I’m asking you, I’m not, I just want…
P: Save, it’ll save a year of investigation, right (takes a drink)
A: But how?
P: You said you’re gonna dig the whole place up.
A: Um, hum.
P: Well start digging. (laughing)
A: Well we will.
P: (Laughing) I mean interesting.
A: Well Willy here’s what we get to, all right.
P: I know, I know, I know, I know the situation I’m in.
A: Yeah, you’re screwed, all right.
P: Should not be talkin’ to you but the problem is again.
A: No.
P: I’m screwed
A: You’re screwed
P: Yeah.
A: Yeah. But, but…
P: That’s here nor there.
A: But, but let’s just let’s just talk about this like two gentlemen, all right.
P: Um, hum.
A: You’re smart, you’re not overcome, you’re, you’re as cagey as a fox Willy so let’s just…
P: Well I don’t know about that.
A: I think you are.
P: I don’t know about that
A: OK, know this
P: I just want to get everybody else, to get back to, back to, back to, their life back again.
A: That’s fair and I want to do what’s best for this investigation. So I want you to tell me the truth, I want to know how bad the situation is, I want to know what other killers I am loOKing for.
P: right
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