Transcripts of police interview

[Sher]

A: You’ve told me it’s not just you, agreed, there’s more out
there. OK.

P: (Over talking) about that.

A: Do you know any others, like is there other people that you’ve
worked with that you know about?

P: No.

A: No.

P: No you’re, you gotta loOK for a different territory.

A: All right. Without giving numbers how big a chink are we
talking about? The truth Willy, don’t, don’t undersell me, don’t,
is that fair. How big a chunk? Where would I draw this line, in
half?

P: I don’t know, see I haven’t loOKed at it that much.

A: Well just numbers, you know there’s 48 numbers there.

P: Um-hum.

A: All right. There’s no doubt in my mind you know, you know all
of the girls you killed. Agreed.

P: No.

A: Well I mean, you don’t know them by name, but they tell me you
don’t take drugs, is that true or not true…

P: Hmm.

A: They tell me you’re not a druggie. all right, so you’re not and
you’re not a drinker, so when you toOK these girls lives you were
sober right, agreed. So you know, like you know, so you know how
many, agreed? It’s not like you are searching for a number.

P: Well what do you want me to say?

A: Well if you’re telling me Don, I don’t know how many I killed,
if you really, you know, Willy I don’t believe you. Because you,
I don’t think, killing is not like, how many times you’ve been to
the A&W do you see what I mean? You know how many times you’ve
killed, I mean every one of those kills is gonna be a special
moment in your life.

P: Umm, no.

A: How do you mean, I don’t even understand that, you mean like
it’s just nothing.

P: No, not really. Nothing. I don’t know.

A: See I need to understand that. Like were they, when you killed
these girls was it a big deal to you or was it just like killing
them, one of the pigs, or somewhere in the middle or, or what like
I’m trying to understand.

P: Um, hum. (Pause) Well I don’t know, don’t know what to say
neither.

A: Let me ask you this question Willy. Did you ever kill any of
them that you regretted, that you actually thought after, do you
know what, she was, she was a nice girl, I should have maybe let
her go. Did you ever have those kind of thoughts?

P: (Pause 30 sec) What do you want me to say?

A: The truth, that’s what we agreed to talk about.

P: But the problem is like I asked you a question already and you
didn’t, you says you can’t do what I tell you right.

A: Cause I can’t negotiate, here’s the story Willy…

P: Um-Hum.

A: … if I negotiate with you for you to tell me how you killed
these girls, where you killed them, how many you killed you know,
what you did with them, all right. If I negotiated a deal, some
sort of a deal, then nothing we say is admissible in a court. all
right, so it’s not worth getting, like it’s not worth getting.
(Pickton takes a drink) Everything we’ve dealt with here today,
as far as I’m concerned, there’s been no deals, we certainly you
know, you’re you know, you would like to make a deal agreed, we
know that. But I’m telling you we can’t make a deal.

P: OK.

A: All right, even if I wanted to make a deal, I’m not gonna make
a deal all right. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t wins
for you in telling the truth. all right. So let’s just talk about
what I can talk about for a second. And you need to make a
decision that that makes sense to me, is that fair?

P: Well…

A: Firstly, if what you’re telling me is true, that Dave is not
involved in this…

P: That’s true.

A: All right. Dave has talked about taking a polygraph test. Do
you think he’ll take it, that he wasn’t involved in the killing?

P: He was not involved in anything.

A: All right.

P: And also (IND) I meant…

A: Then why is Dave saying that…

P: He’s protecting me.

A: All right, so he’s now are you protecting Dinah or did you tell
Dave that Dinah had killed some of the girls.

P: That’s true.

A: That true that you told Dave that, or it’s true that she did
kill some of them?

P: Yeah, it’s true I told Dave that.

A: And is it true that Dinah did kill some of them? [Just] Please
tell me the truth

P: I gotta talk to her first. I have to. I don’t want to say
something wrong. But if you want me to I’ll bring everything out,
but I gotta talk to her first.

A: But what you’re, but what you seem to be saying to me all
right…

P: Um, hum.

[Sher]

A: … is that…

P: I don’t wanna commit myself or her to anything else.

A: To what she’s done

P: Yeah.

A: Yeah, OK.

P: Because I won’t tell, want you to see what, see what’s gonna
happen first, see what she wants to do. But I…

A: But what choice would she have I mean she really only has two
choices right.

P: Yeah, I know but…

A: One would be to own up that she killed some of the girls with
you. I could take, would I, let me try to understand this Dave
[sic]
.

P: Um, hum.

A: Either you guys killed some of the girls together, all right.
Or are you telling me that even without you she killed some of the
girls?

P: No comment.

A: Yeah, that’s the one, OK. So you don’t want to talk about
that. all right, let’s put that aside and you would want to what,
discuss with her, how she feels about you talking about that?

P: Um, hmm.

A: Well I, I don’t think she’s gonna say well, go ahead and tell
them the truth.

P: Why not?

A: Well I guess cause she’s guilty of murder then.

P: No, not necessarily.

A: Well then I gotta, I don’t, I don’t understand that.

P: I mean myself, I just got, like I say I just to talk to her in
person.

A: But it is sort of one of these situations, what you’re saying
is, am I gonna take the blame for everything, including stuff
she’s done. Is that, that’s what you’re telling me right, that’s
what you got to negotiate with her, not with me. Now you gotta
know Dave, that from my…

P: Dave…

A: Or Dave, sorry…

P: You said it twice

A: Do you, do you want me to call you Willy or Rob, which…

P: Doesn’t matter.

A: Pick one for me

P: Don’t matter, don’t matter.

A: What do your friends call you? Both or…

P: Whatever.

A: I’ll, I’ll call you Willy. I’ve known you as Willy but that’s…

P: But I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna walk anyway, and I’m not gonna
run.

A: OK, good.

P: But the problem is I mean, everybody has to get their life back
together again, and put everything to rest.

A: But Willy you gotta say, say we’re cops together.

P: Um-humm

A: And Dinah has killed some of these girls on her own, I mean
really…

P: No comment.

A: No but we can’t just let her go, you gotta agree with that
right.

P: No comment. I’ll take the fall for anything else

A: Are you gonna take the fall for Lynn too? Because that’s,
that…

P: If that, if that’s what to comes down to, but the problem is
like I said, I gotta speak to Dinah.

A: OK. Let’s put Dinah aside then, we’re not gonna talk about
Dinah, let’s talk about Lynn. Lynn betrayed you, after you saved
her life, is that true, that you saved her life twice. I think it
is, isn’t it?

P: Um, hum.

A: She was blackmailing you.

P: Um, hum.

A: And trust me when I tell you that if you choose not to talk
about what she’s done, they will end up making a deal with her and
she’ll walk away scott free and probably try and get some of the
reward money for heaven sakes. SO I don’t see where you owe her
any loyalty. Would you agree with me on that?

P: Um hum

[Sher]

A: Agreed.

P: Um hum

A: So, one of the things that you talk about, what’s in it for
you, would be to finally pay her back for all the betrayal she’s
done. Like you’re in a good, powerful position there.

P:Um hum

A: All right, you agree with me? Makes sense doesn’t it?

P: Yeah, but I still gotta talk to Dinah first

A: Let’s just travel one more road though, to make sure we
understand each other.

P: I do.

A: Is that if you lie about anything.

P: I’m not, I’m not, I have nothing to lie about. I mean I’m
nailed to the cross. I’m the head honcho right.

A: Yeah, yeah you are.

P: So…

A: But…

P: … what have I got to lie about?

A: Well you might try to…

P: You either, you got me, you got me, you got me and…

A: Um hum

P: … I’m nailed to the cross [all] so.

A: Yeah, I agree with you.

P: There you are.

A: But my question is…

P: But there will be.

A: … are you, are you…

P: A lot of people coming down

A: With you?

P: A lot of people

A: Well now that’s more interesting.

P: But that’s here nor there.

A: Ex, explain that to me.

P: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no I can’t do that.

A: Why not Willy?

P: No, no…

A: Well you gotta give me some hints so I know what I’m talking
about.

P: Yeah

A: Well give me some hints then, what…’

P: Well there’s a lot of other people involved too. But
otherwise, like I said, I’ll just take the fall.

A: Let me ask you a question all right.

P: um hum

A: We have had a report about a thing called blood sport out
there.

P: What?

A: Blood sport. We’ve, we’ve had a story about ah…

P: What’s that?

A: People going out there and that there was a group of you guys
that would, would kill the girls
.
P: (Laughing)

A: Is there any truth to that?

P: No

A: All right

P: Never

A: OK. Are there other guys that were involved when, when some of
these girls lost their lives, is that what you’re telling me?

P: No

A: Just you. You and, and, and what, whatever the other girl.

P: There’s other people involved but, but that’s here nor there.

A: OK, give me ah, without naming names, just give me a picture of
how that comes together, so I can understand where, what I’m
thinking, I’m not following you. So don’t name names, but just
give me a picture of how that comes together.

P: Well. There’s other people

A: Yeah, but Willy, I, your, I’m confused

P: I know. I know that because the problem is way over your head
and I, like I said I’m not gonna, I’ll take the fall for
everything, but the problem is I’m the head honcho and you got me
now.

A: Yeah.

P: And I got to make sure and go from there

A: Are you hungry at all?

P: Well, I don’t deserve to eat.

A: Oh, will you stop that. What can I get you?

P: Nothing

A: Pork sandwich?

P: Nothing. I don’t deserve to eat.

A: All right, I have to go to the washroom, do you have to go to
the washroom?

P: No

A: You’re ah, what a guy. Can I get you another Minute Maid to
drink? all right, you stay here, don’t touch anything, I’m gonna
go have a whiz, I’ll come back, is what you’ve told me here
tonight the truth so far?

P: Well. Like I told you, did I ever lie to you yet? I mean, I’m
the only, I did tell a few stories…

A: Which ones were those?

P: I told you a few stories but the problem is you got me right.

A: Yeah

[Sher]

P: I’m the head honcho, you know that

A: Yeah

P: So

A: Is it true when you tell me that Dave is not involved in any of
the killings.

P: Dave’s not involved in anything.

A: Is it now, and don’t lie to me, promise me…

P: Um- hum. At this stage, no comment.

A: OK, But definitely afterwards. OK. I got it. Let me step out
and have a whiz, ah, can I get you anything, OK. I’ll be back in
just a couple of seconds. (Leaves room for 11 min 55 sec) let me
grab a water Willy. I mean do you want a water?

P: Is the washroom right here?

A: Yeah, there is. Come on with me. It’s ah, 8:52 I’m taking
Willy to the washroom.

(pause 4 min) Fordy puts two water bottles in the room.

A: Go ahead, get back into the room. Yeah, yeah. Oh they grabbed
us some water. Good, have a seat. It’s ah, 8:56 and ah Willy just
went to the washroom, ah, I have to account, Willy, (Pickton
yawning) for the conversation, we had outside the room ah, you
admired the architecture and ah, I agreed with you. There was no
other conversation was there.


P: No.

A: OK. And obviously I didn’t threaten you or promise you
anything. We didn’t have any discussions.

P: No.

A: Let me ask you a question Willy, all right. I’ve told you I’m
not prepared to ah, negotiate.

P: OK.

A: All right.

P: Yeah.

A: But my partner…

P: I understand what you’re saying.

A: Yeah, my partner Jim Hunter said something to me, which I put
to you.

P: um-hum.

A: He did say that, obviously if you choose to explain to us what
you did, and why you did it, and how you did it, if that makes
sense, it could change the way we investigate the farm. Do you see
what I mean?

P: Run that by me again?

A: Well, if you choose to explain what you’ve done right. How
many you’ve killed, how you killed them, what you did with them,
then that’s an avenue of investigation we can follow up and if we,
you know, then we would conceivably by good investigation, not
have to be at the farm as long. And that’s just logical right,
does that make sense to you?

P: A little bit, but that’s not what I asked for is it?

A: What did you ask for?

P: Um, if I, cause you got me right?

A: Yeah

P: I’m the head, head guy right?

A: Well let me ask you a question.

P: OK. ... and I’m f**ked anyways so… I’m listening

A: Yeah.

P: The only problem is…

A: Robert, you killed Sereena and Mona, agreed?

P: I won’t admit to anything yet.

A: Well it’s a simple question.

P: OK, but I won’t admit to anything yet, but, but go ahead.

A: All right, so that’s the girl, that’s the one with the inhaler?

P: Um hum

A: All right.

P: I won’t admit to anything yet, but go ahead.

A: But my question is real cut and dry. Did you kill them by
yourself or was Dinah involved in them, in those two?

P: No comment.

A: Which kinda tells me that she was involved.

P: Don’t know.

A: Well…

P: At this stage.

A: Don’t say that, you do know but don’t want to say. Is that
fair?

P: Don’t know.

A: Because if you didn’t know, then what happens later when you
decide to tell the truth, and people say…

P: I don’t know

A: … well you

P: Every, everything will, like I says, my word is my word.

A: um, hum

P: Now you know me. But there’ll be other people coming down too.

A: OK, without naming names, give me an idea of, of how they’re
gonna come down so I can understand.

P: There will be other murderers or whatever, other people, other,
other people charged, but that’s not here nor there.

A: Men or women?

P: A man.

A: Man, one other man.

P: Um hum

[Sher]

A: Now, this guy that talked about you, you, you made a comment
that I got stuff on him, do you remember making that…

P: I got, I got lotsa stuff on him, yeah.

A: Is that, that, I take it that’s not murder stuff, that’s just
what, thefts, or other…

P: Yeah, other stuff, yeah.

A: It shocked you, Willy, didn’t it, that he…

P: Um, hum

A: … that he chose to…

P: Um hum

A: … to say, tell what you’ve told him. Why do you think he did
that, like just…

P: Just to hear himself talk.

A: But you gotta admit that you were careless to, to have told the
number of people you told what you were doing. Like that wasn't,
in hindsight, you gotta admit that wasn’t a smart thing to do?

P: What’s that? Tell who?

A: To tell, well I mean I’ve got the statements right…

P: To, from who? A lot of it is all, a lot of it is all gossip

A: Well no but some of it is directly, things you told them. I
agree with you, some is, we’re getting a lot of that sort of
gossip.

P: Yeah, a lot of it, lot, a lot, a lot of gossip here.

A: Yeah, but a lot, you gotta admit that you, you’ve made
mistakes.

P: There is a lot of gossip here.

A: But you gotta admit to me you’ve made mistakes, you’ve ended up
telling people you shouldn’t have told.

P: A lot of gossip here, again a lot, a lot of stuff came from
Lynn.

A: Yeah, oh yeah, I know hat. I know all of those stories.

P: That’s where all the gossip come from and went on and on and
on. That’s where it come from.

A: Do you think ultimately we’ll be charging Lynn, when you tell
the truth? Like…

P: Yeah, probably, yeah.

A: In taking part or in simply knowing that you were doing it?

P: In both. Even more than that, too, that’s only part.

A: Was there any ah, were there any snuff films made or anything
like that Willy?

P: No

A: Nothiing like that?

P: No.

A: Is that true?

P: um hum

A: Nothing shocks me right, I mean I’ve been a cop for almost 30
years.

P: um hum

A: When you finally open up are we gonna be talking about torture
and stuff like that?

P: No, nothing like that.

A: When you finally decide to talk about this, are you, do you
know why you were killing them, like in your own mind, do you know
what it was? (Pause 5 sec) Like do you think you understand what
happened, why you ended up killing these girls, like do you, you
know you’re intelligent…?


P: No. I mean I won’t ah, no comment at this stage.

[Sher]

A: is that right?

P: Cause I gotta talk to Dinah first (Pause 10 sec)

A: When, and I realize you know, I realize your position right.

P: um hum

A: When you loOK at my board here

P: um hum

A: All right, just take a loOK at it.

P: Yeah, I loOKed at it a couple of times, yeah.

A: How many do you think you recognize? Like if we, if you were
free to talk right now, how many could you reach out and touch?

P: You can touch ‘em all (Pickton points at board with pictures of
missing women).

A: No, but I mean, that, that you killed?

P: You make me more of a mass murderer than I am.

A: Well you’re saying you haven’t killed 48?

P: hum?

A: But you’ve killed women that are not on here too?

P: Forty what, what are you…

A: Well there’s 48 right?

P: yeah

A: OK. So my question you know, you like you said, 'Don, don’t
make me more of a mass murderer than I am,' agreed?

P: That’s right.

A: OK, but my question is, is it’s become clear to me that
there’s, there’s women you’ve, you have killed that aren’t on
here, you would agree with me on that, that…

P: No, no, no, no comment

A: Why not, why not just, why not tell me the truth?

P: Because if they are not on there, I’m not charged for it right?

A: Yeah, but what’s the difference between 2 or 20, it makes no
difference to the sentence, I mean.

P: I could say a hundred and fifty, too.

A: Pardon?

P: I could say 150 too but there is not any truth involved.

A: Yeah, no and I don’t…

P: I mean, I mean myself I mean ah, we’re, we’re gasping for
something that’s not there.

A: OK explain that to me.

P: Like if you had a hundred fifty on there, or you had ten on
there...

A: M-hmm

P: These are the ones you are concentrating on…

A: M-hmm

P: Whatever other ones that are not on there, I am not charged
with?

A: That’s right, but you are only charged with two that are on
there.

P: That’s right…

A: But you will be charged with more obviously…

P: Well maybe…

A: Well I can see… I mean Willie the DNA is pouring in. Like you
see…I gotta tell ya I am thinking to myself, why am I even having
this conversation with you?

P: That is what I am asking you, I feel the same thing, but the
problem is… like I said I am the head honcho.

A: OK, like when you say head honcho…?

P: I am the head guy.

A: So, without you, none of these murders would have happened is
what you are telling me? Is that true? Or is the other guy..

P: No, no…

A: Without you he wouldn’t have killed anybody?

P: No, no…

A: Is he a decent guy?

P: (Pause) No comment again on that.

A: Biker?

P: No comment again on that.

A: Am I close?

P: No.. no.

A: Or you don’t want to talk about that?

P: Don’t want to talk about it. (Pause.) So.. ?? There be guns
involved here.

A: How do you mean guns?

P: Well. Like I said there be guns involved too.

A: You need to explain that more, I need to understand that.

P: OK, well I mean myself, if I commit, there will be at least one
extra gun involved.

A: That you have used to kill a girl?

P: Mmmm… Other things.
(They talk over each other.)

A: Oh wait are you hinting there could be dead guys there too?

P: Uh-huh.

A: How many?